Very long barrel. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Seen is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. Coquilhat Aim The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. have a great day! Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Belgian Liege gunmakers The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. to share our findings by this means of communication. Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. Belgian Arms cie The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Any ideas as to date range? Search. (copy right L.R. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Hi Gerard and everyone! for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. The Modern Shotgun. As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Charlier Ch. Chartier Colette Victor On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. proof marks. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Home | Login | Register. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. Berleur Michel Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. Bertrand Antoine I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Clment Charles Philibert I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Any info will help. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Sorry! The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? No maker's name anywhere? typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Bovy Thodore Joseph Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Christophe Henri Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. Clment Walter Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. . Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Quick Facts I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Wish I could be more helpful! No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. Bronne Gustave Comblain John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Thank you Jerry. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. GWO, good condition. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. IMPORTANT NOTE! Thomas Jefferson. Rifles & Musket Information. Bastin Frres Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? Bodson TH. Britte Frres These include the For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. Dallas, Donald. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. There's no indication of gauge. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. Can be without star and ring. Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Cachoir they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Berleur Guillaume Anonymes "Cueruy" could be the maker. Ancion DD & Fils Jun 21, 2012. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Broqua & Scholberg Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. and an eagles head. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Can you send me some, Ed? Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Behr Jean jacques Thank y'all again! Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages carefully bound by threads. Or any info? JavaScript is disabled. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Bodson N. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". Four barrel . On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Can anybody shed some light here? The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Coleye M. N. 1840-1860. Baron Emile Arnold Mathias Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. Very helpfull once again. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. Designates rifled barrel. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. The book Your help is appreciated. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . After years of looking at and trying Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 .